L

2008 WAS the Year of Linux Desktop. Market share rose from 1,3% to 2% in the last year.
All major manufacturers offer Linux Netbooks and every day more people ask about Linux.
It is only a matter of time before Linux reaches 5%.

Jamie Souef

i use linux, i use OSX and windows. My sister wanted a cheep PC. I said I’ll install Ubuntu on it - you won’t have to pay for windows. She asked, “What’s Ubuntu?”, i told her it’s Linux. She asked, “What’s Linux?”. I said it is an Open Source Operating System. She then asked “What’s an Operating System? Is it Windows?” She represents the major portion of users out there. Enough said!

blackbelt_jones

Linux for the masses is inevitable, but, alas, probably not even close. Everything most people know about what a good operating system has been taught to them by Micrsoft. Linux may be a better operating system, but if there’s anything that Windows is better at, it’s being Windows. These days, you can run Linux as if it were Windows, and you can get by, but for many people, it feels like a second rate knockoff. It’s as if Jerry Seinfeld is competing with Tiger Woods. If the game is golf, Tiger will win every time, but instead, they’re both entered into a Jerry Seinfeld lookalike contest.

The number one thing we can do to stop competing on Microsoft’s home turf is to stop being ashamed of the command line. As a supplement to the Desktop, it’s not hard to learn enough to take computing to a whole different level. Anybody can do it, but the community doesn’t encourage them.

No gui will ever take the place of the command line– and vice versa. It’s not about one tool being better than another, it’s about two tools being better than one tool. Linux is based on two tools, the GUI and CLI, and that’s why it rocks. Windows has a command line, but for the desktop user, Windows is de facto based on one tool. We have an enormous advantage– and we’re embarassed to talk about. These days, most distros don’t even put alink to the terminal on the desktop anymore.

Part of the problem is that Linux is driven by programmers and developers, and naturally, they’re going to try to program and develop us to desktop power, but helping people cross the threshold to the command line is an educational problem. It took me two years with Linux before I started using the CLI, and, my god, it was so much easier than i had expected!

These days, I tell people who are interested on learning Linux the truth, which is that you’re going to need to use the CLI sometimes to understand why people like me are so fanatically devoted to Linux. You can use it 100 per cent from the GUI, but you won’t get it that way. I think it’s the truth. Migrating is too much of a hassle to use Linux at half power.

Alexia Death

It is the year of the Linux. So was the last and so will be next. So have been every year Linux has gained developers and users.

Economic troubles are good for linux because Linux is cheap - free even. Linux will be the OS of a home user when served as an integral part of a gadget like in the recent boom of cheap netbooks. And the pitch is working.

As to command line… Linux is like an 11 years old girl who is early in developing, ashamed of her tits(command line) showing next to her flat chested classmates. It will pass with time and gaining understanding. Hopefully Windows will eventually catch up and develop a decent command line. There are promises already and it would cerainly boost our young girls self confidence… GUI is nice for visual stuff, but nothing beats the efforless power of a good shell. I want both in my computer life. Only Linux offers it now.

PS: Try yakuake if you haven’t yet. Shell only a keystroke away and never in the way.

blackbelt_jones

I should try what? Will google.

Did you know that if you open the shell from the pwd in konqueror (or dolphin) by hitting F4? This is great for end user nongurus like me cause it means I can navigate graphically, click to a location instead of cd-ing, and then use the cli. Or i can bookmark a location in konqueror. I’m getting more comfortable with it, but as a beginner, I found navigating the filesystem via cd to be awkward and double-plus unfun.

Actually most file managers can open a terminal window, though nautilus requires a additional plug-in.

Alexia Death

The only thing one needs to know to realize that cd-ing is faster is how to use tab to complete names. Bonus, if you know how to use relative paths ;)

Yakuake is a dropdown quake style console that internaly uses kde-s own Konsole. Very comfy for ie. a person that finds apt-get faster that clicking through the hassle of software manager…

Pollock

Some of these comments lead me to believe that Linux will never become mainstream. I don’t want to use a command line.

The reason I use Windows, and in the short to medium term will continue to use Windows is precisely because I can rely on using a GUI, rather than having to remember commands. Let the developer work out the commands required, and give me an icon I can click on to run that sequence.

I tried Ubuntu, but ended up wondering what it’s advantages were over Windows. It may (or may not) be more secure, run on lower hardware, etc, but it’s a pain to use. Simply trying to install my graphics driver (following the guides on the Ubuntu site) led me to uninstalling the GUI completely and being left with a command prompt only - I had to wipe the drive and start again. I haven’t had a virus in over 5 years, AV and firewall’s are cheap (even for the best like NOD32 and Outpost), I can afford to buy decent hardware (and want decent hardware for gaming), I build my own PCs and Win XP OEM is cheap, and everything just works, out of the box.

Give me an OS that is simple to use, where hardware and software is easy to install and just works, without me having to bugger around, and I’ll use it. In fact, I already do - it’s called WinXP.

Alexia Death

@Pollock

You sound like an incurable Windows user. You do not wish to do anything differently, even if ultimately it may be more effective. So you should not. You have no reason to change. Don’t. mainsream does not mean converting all windows users. IMHO, that you might own a linux netbook next to your windows PC one day, perhaps even in a near future, is mainstream enough.

np_man

Until Linux polishes the experience for the things that actual humans do at their jobs and in their offices, they will be screwed in their quest for taking the desktop.

Examples:

1.) Websurfing. They need a viable Flash, or Flash equivalent that does not crash on every animation intensive page. Websurfing experience is subpar on Linux- from a office person’s perspective. I hate Flash, I hate that is pervasive, but it is- and Linux has got to deal with it. Quickly.

2.) Printing. CUPS has come a long way, but sadly, printing is still a pain in the ass. And not just because of CUPS. The Linux way of doing things hurts them- the printing controls can very, very different with each app. And many things that are a given in corporate environments are simply not supported- at least not elegantly. Things like accounting, or having to enter codes to charge print jobs to particular departments. You can’t take an admin who has been working on Windows or Mac for years and suddenly tell them they have to jump to the command line and type out arcane commands to merge PDFs, or to print them. It won’t fly.

Further, major apps often have major printing bugs. For the longest time Adobe Reader could not print more than 1 copy to a printer. Evince, also could not handle multiple copies. This is a major flaw in office environments.

I could go on.

Josh

Until Linux ‘just works’ with business and personal software, it will not catch on with the masses.

Despite the fact that 90% of the functionality in Windows/OSX exists in easy to install and user friendly distros (such as ubuntu), it simply causes unneeded headaches for users that want things to work without scouring the internet for custom solutions that may or may not be easy to understand depending on their level of technical knowledge.

Its been said before– sure– but Linux is still for those that either have time on their hands to get it set up right, or have a specific level of knowledge about OS’ and/or programming.

furlongxweek

@Pollock:
You nailed it. You definitely must use windows. If windows works well for you, there’s no reason why you should use something different.
The problem is that people want linux to look and work exactly in the same way windows looks and “works”. Instead, they should use linux only because it’s _different_. It’s the only way it makes sense.

Ayb

“I haven’t had a virus in over 5 years, AV and firewall’s are cheap (even for the best like NOD32 and Outpost), I can afford to buy decent hardware (and want decent hardware for gaming), I build my own PCs and Win XP OEM is cheap, and everything just works, out of the box.”

I bet your wrong, the average windows machine is comprimised within 40minutes of being connected to the internet.

“The reason I use Windows, and in the short to medium term will continue to use Windows is precisely because I can rely on using a GUI, rather than having to remember commands. Let the developer work out the commands required, and give me an icon I can click on to run that sequence.”

This pathetic response is sadly true for many people. They have no interest in learning the command line, they would rather do repetative tasks like batch renaming by hand. You know why? Cause they are idiots, does linux need idiot users to become mainstream? Is that what mainstream linux is? Then f mainstream linux. KEEP LINUX HAX[]Rd

“It took me two years with Linux before I started using the CLI, and, my god, it was so much easier than i had expected!”

Sad dude, very sad. But at least you use the CL now.

As for the desktop and CLI combo… the desktop is there almost entirely to support multiple terminal windows… I don’t know what you weenies do with it, but this is a sad showing of the linux community, in yonder comments.

Chris

I hadn’t used Linux before 2008 but now it’s the only way. Sure it took a bit of getting used to, but once you’ve grasped the basics of the command line / GUI then most day to day things are just as easy, if not easier, than Windows.

Plus, with LiveCD’s for all kinds of distros, people have more of an opportunity to test Linux out for themselves.

Pollock

@Ayb - I forgot to say, people like you also put me off.

Like it or not, Linux is harder to get into than Windows, and support is largely provided by the community. If the community is full of arrogant pricks like yourself then that support base is compromised, or people won’t look for support in case they get attacked.

I bet I’m not wrong. I bet the PCs I’ve built for friends and family over the past few years are not infected, whether I’ve installed subscription security software, or free software (like Comodo). When I’ve been infected in the past it was due to my own stupidity, and I knew I was running the risk at the time.

I’m sorry if wanting to run a command sequence that someone else has developed and provided a “run” command for is pathetic. I guess you never buy or use any software - you must program it yourself everytime you want to use it, for fear of being pathetic. I myself have a job and a family to occupy my time - I don’t do things like “batch renaming by hand”, and I’m not afraid to admit I don’t even know what that is. I use the internet, I use e-mail, I use Office applications, I use bespoke applications and I play games. None of these tasks require user-intensive crap - i just click the icon to run the software.

I’m suprised you use Linux at all. Why aren’t you locked in a darkened room, soldering together your own PCBs to create your own computer, then developing your own programming language that is so obscure no-one else can understand it, if you want to be such a sudo-elitist prick that can do things in a more complicated way than anyone else?

o0splitpaw0o

You know as promising :and better :and better :and better it keeps reaching more GUI friendly, the more hands dabble in it. Yea, there might be a bit of bias in the titles, and a shake of hope in the process, but as running strides keep happening in a local government level, easy affordable ppc hype keeps pushing sales. People hear more of it, and stats keep improving over time, with wishful predictions spinning a bit more.. it’s definitely drawing eyes on a plausible fact. It’s hard to track free, when markets which use sale surveys & no predictable data to figure out… “who’s running linux”.. or running linux with even a commercial application emulated on a linux desktop.

Pollock

And yes, I realise the irony of mis-typing “sudo” instead of “pseudo” in my last comment!

Tzer2

As long as this attitude is prevalent, Linux will never ever become a mainstream OS:

“The number one thing we can do to stop competing on Microsoft’s home turf is to stop being ashamed of the command line. As a supplement to the Desktop, it’s not hard to learn enough to take computing to a whole different level. Anybody can do it, but the community doesn’t encourage them.”

The problem with this attitude is that it assumes people WANT to learn how to use a computer. It assumes that most people with a computer are interested in their computer, interested in how it works and how to get the most out of it. But most people don’t give a damn how their computer works, and they don’t care about getting the most out of it.

Most people have better things to do with their time than learn what “sudo” means, or how to batch rename files.

Most people want to spend as little time learning about computers as possible, not because “the community” says they shouldn’t, but because it’s very boring to learn about computers if you’re not interested in computers.

Would you bother to learn about sewing if you have a torn shirt? No, you’d probably either buy a new one or take it to someone who does know about sewing.

Would you bother to learn about car repair when your car breaks down? The odds are you wouldn’t, you’d probably take it to a garage and get an expert to take a look.

Would you bother to learn about cooking when you fancy a really good meal? Some might, but most won’t, most will just go to a restaurant or invite someone over who can cook well.

Would you bother to learn about plumbing when the pipes burst? No, you’d get a plumber to fix things.

Would most computer users bother to learn command lines if they don’t have to? They wouldn’t bother. They’d probably use a totally graphically-based OS instead, and in fact that’s what they do do with Windows and Macintosh.

We all have hobbies and passions, but none of us have the time or the energy to become experts in everything we encounter.

Most computer users are about as enthusiastic about computers as they are about toasters or fridges or cookers or boilers: they don’t really care how they work as long as they do work.

Any OS which assumes enthusiasm and a desire to learn on the part of the user is doomed from the start.

John

Everyone complains about the command line but the truth is your average user doesn’t need it. My neighbor doesn’t even understand how to add songs to itunes. However, I put ubuntu on his laptop to replace the dying windows install, and guess what? Not one question or problem.

Windows people are funny. When you say you don’t need a command line in Linux, they bring up some video card installation issue which forced them to use the command line. However if you tell them how powerful the command line is they suddenly compare that to an average user who just reads email, surf, and plays games. Well none of those things need the command line. And I’ve dealt with problems installing new hardware in windows just the same.

wingbat

@Tzer2

“Any OS which assumes enthusiasm and a desire to learn on the part of the user is doomed from the start.”

I wouldn’t say ‘doomed;’ as the desktop isn’t exactly the be-all-and-end-all of computers.

I think it’s pretty cool that some otherwise casual users are interested in Linux, but I don’t blame them if they are turned off by it.

For now and for a while yet, it’s still in the realm of more technical or heavier users looking for features that other options lack.

Linux has been around for a long time and will continue to be around. Maybe it won’t find a place amongst the casual user pantheon, but that is probably just fine. It’s survived this long without them. It’s not doomed, just different. :)

Toni

Tzer2, everybody has learnt how to use a computer, even for windows.
The question here is, are they willing to learn another way for doing things? Because they learnt to use windows. Using linux is actually easier and more comforotable than windows, only if you spend some time trying to understand how it works (in fact the same, or probably less time than the time you spend on windows)

Arlo Owens

I have trying various distros for years, with the goal of being able to hand a CD to one of my many suffering Windows friends, and have them replace Windows. We are just not there yet. Major improvements have been made, such as improvements in package management, and adding niceties such as “my documents”, but it’s not ready yet…. and the reasons might surprise most people, but you have to consider who your audience is:

1. IM is primitive on Linux, and does not really supply live webcam support. This is a biggie!
2. Codecs. “Oh it’s so EASY” my Fedora buddy said. “Just go to the command line and….” . No thanks, most folks want to have the system say “such and such plugin is needed, click here to download”, or have it already installed.
They want their Youtube to work, first time.
3. Some applications for Linux are primative and hard to use. Is there a Linux version of “Photo Explosion” that lets you make cute little cards and such, with tons of free artwork. Goofy applications, yes, but that is what the public wants. They love their $5 games they bought at Big Lots!!
4. Lack of cool games, but that is SO hard to overcome! However, APPLE does!!!
5. No Linux stuff available at retail. BUT, Apple deals with this, too.
6. For a lot of distros, installation is STILL daunting! Check out the partitioning part of the Zenwalk installation…. holy crap, is my girlfriend’s high school niece gonna deal with THAT??!??

Anyway, those are my random thoughts. Linux has greatly improved, but we have a way to go. I use PCLINUXOS on my Dell Vostro 1000, because performance is very very good.

Downlow Dave

Your “suffering Windows friends”? What are they suffering with? Do they find it difficult to install software? To run software? I don’t get all these impressions I read about people suffering with Windows. Windows is so simple to use that if your friends suffer with it then maybe they should the computer back in the box and return it to the store.

Christopher Rafael

I Believe that, the rise of PC / IBM / MS-DOS and then Windows were because of the use of them in Enterprises. Thus, employees of this enterprises took their work PC systems to home and the result is what we got today. (Including MS-DOS / Windows popularity).

I Believe, a good strategies for Linux is to train independent developer in programming for Linux. Also, implementing and developing development tools for Linux which increase productivity and Application Intercommunication (something like COM in Windows which is used sometimes too much). Most of this Developer makes the softwares that all sizes companies use. Thus implementing Linux at work space will make final users a getting know and adapted to the wonderful World of Linux.

PD.: I don not know if I’ve been clear enough. Excuse confusing Ideas. I’m not native speaker.

np_man

Looking at the discussion, I think the question of the article needs to be reframed, from “Linux on the Desktop: Are We There Yet?” to “Do we Want Linux on the Desktop?” because whenever I see discussions like this, the response from a sizable chunk of the Linux community is, “…Linux is what it is- love it or leave it.”

You cannot honestly believe you are going to retrain the business world at large to embrace the command line, or to stop using their fancy new 65-page per minute color/printer/scanners in favor of 5 year old inkjets that work swell with CUPS.

Arlo Owens

Most of my Windows friends suffer from viruses, spyware, etc. Many of them have learned how to reformat their drives to reinstall Windows, and consider it normal. Their solution is always the same “buy a brand new computer”. It never works.

I am a BIG supporter of Linux on the desktop, but again, many Linux users are hostile to the idea of anyone who does not think the command line is easy. I taught computer classes part time for years, from the early days of DOS through Windows 98, when I quit teaching, and I will tell you that command line was MUCH harder for folks to figure out. I think, there are many ways of learning, and a lot of people are very visual. My students were MUCH more productive for longer periods time than command line students.

It’s hard form me to imagine we are still embroiled in the very very old argument of “command line vs. GUI” as a PRODUCTIVITY enhancement.

Most people who use computers are USERS and are NOT passionate about their operating system. It is difficult to think like those users, but if Linux is to make it , we have to find out HOW they use their computers, and tailor Linux to match.

John

@Arlo
1. The new IM in gnome will take care of this. This stuff is coming. However video skype works now. An which IM do you use in windows? I can’t stand to run 3 different clients to keep track of all my friends. Pidgin has been good for me.

2. Umm, maybe you should try this again. Ubuntu for at least a year now will automatically ask you if you want to install the codec and flash the first time you try to run them. Of if you don’t want to wait, you can just click the single package in Add/Remove programs which installs everything.

3. There is just as much ‘primitave’ software on windows. And those $5 games are a great example of some.

4. yep, no Crysis on linux. However WOW can run, and Quake/Unreal series run natively. But I agree, the bleeding edge of gaming isn’t on Linux. These days however it’s not windows either. The consoles are getting all the A list titles.

5. Very True. But good news, BestBuy is now selling Ubuntu. So its a start.

6. Strange, Ubuntu installation is easier than Windows. And again, you are comparing your girlfriend (average user I assume) to a task an average user wouldn’t even do in windows.

It looks like you are using linux, but I think some of your points are out of date.

flippy

“Most of my Windows friends suffer from viruses, spyware, etc.”
if they do they should learn how to take care of there computers. I use to have that problem when I was 16, then I figured out how to keep it running with out problems. The fact that windows is more prone to attacks is because of its popularity not because it’s weak. As we all know there are viruses for Linux, but who cares to spread them. Suffering is when you cant get your wifi to work to find out the drivers are not written, so you sit in our dorm like a dick.

Arlo Owens

@John,

Yeah, I should try the Ubuntu 8.10 Beta, THANKS! I was a big fan of Ubuntu for years, but on my Dell Laptop, I saw system slowdowns that I could not explain, thus, I a using PCLOS (not a big fan of KDE but what the heck). I am trying a variety of distros on a regular basis…. Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu), Zenwalk, TinyME, DSL… on and on.

When will the newest version of Gnome be out?

@flippy:

If you learned how to properly maintain your computer, and keep it safe from viruses, spyware, etc, then you are NOT THE AVERAGE USER, you are an ADVANCED USER! The average user wants it to be a tool, that they can use. They are NOT computer hobbyists!

This is an old argument, that if “people are too stupid to use computers they should not be allowed to buy them, or if they do, it’s their own fault!!”. But the days of “boutique” computers and users is over. Accept it: regular people buy computers, and love the blinky things and the “goo gahs”, and the kind of software that you and I would never buy, and that is not going to change.

That said, Apple does a fine job of taking a “Unixy” operating system and offering amazing programs, ease of use, and security, and still support webcams and most of the web standards. (yeah, I am a Mac Guy too)

blackbelt_jones

Pollock wrote:

“The reason I use Windows, and in the short to medium term will continue to use Windows is precisely because I can rely on using a GUI, rather than having to remember commands. Let the developer work out the commands required, and give me an icon I can click on to run that sequence.

I tried Ubuntu, but ended up wondering what it’s advantages were over Windows. It may (or may not) be more secure, run on lower hardware, etc, but it’s a pain to use. Simply trying to install my graphics driver (following the guides on the Ubuntu site) led me to uninstalling the GUI completely and being left with a command prompt only - I had to wipe the drive and start again. I haven’t had a virus in over 5 years, AV and firewall’s are cheap (even for the best like NOD32 and Outpost), I can afford to buy decent hardware (and want decent hardware for gaming), I build my own PCs and Win XP OEM is cheap, and everything just works, out of the box.

Give me an OS that is simple to use, where hardware and software is easy to install and just works, without me having to bugger around, and I’ll use it. In fact, I already do - it’s called WinXP.”

Let me tell you what you’re not getting: THE COMMAND LINE IS PART OF THE DESKTOP!

In other words, this isn’t 1985, when the command line and the desktop gui were in competition. tHE CLI IS INTEGRATED INTO THE DESKTOP FOR YOU TO USE OR NOT USE AT WILL. Hey, I have a desktop GUI , and I love it! I agree completely that relying on the CLI is not a viable option for most people, and that includes me — but knowing how to use the command line when it will save you time doesn’t mean that the desktop GUI is sucked back into the computer. It’s an option that you use, and when you know how to use it, it’s awesome. And it’s not hard to learn, and the part about memorizing commands is just nonsense. There are are a hundred alternatives to memorizing commands. You pick up the everyday commands very quickly, and the rest you save somewhere. I keep all my seldom used but important commands online in my yahoo mail account, in the memos page. Some of the commands are pretty elaborate, but you don’t have to memorize them, or understand them. You don’t even have to type them. A copy and paste will do. But the best part is scripting. Take a bunch of commands, put them in a text file, and the machine executes the commands will you sleep, or go to work, or whatever.

There’s a kind of extremely crude scripting that the hard core geeks sniff at, but which works just fine, and that’s the kind of scripting I practice.

I once found a tutorial in a linux forum about converting .avi files to .isos for DVDs. I didn’t understand any of the long intricate commands, but I copied them into a text file, and then I created another text file to activate several instances of the script in sequence. So I was able to let the machine run all night and create a dozen DVD’s at a pop. After about 24 hours, I had 12 isos to burn. Not only did this save me about six hours oif work right there, it was six hours of absolute drudgery, dull idiotic click click clicking and waiting around for each and every file. I remember what it used to be like to do this in windows.

Furthermore, a little bit of command line knowledge makes all kinds of desktop customizations possible.

I came to Linux from a very nontechnical background, and there’s no getting around that it was a huge hassle,and though that was six years ago, and it’s probably easier. I’m guessing that it’s still not easy. The worst part isn”t technical; it’s cultural. Windows isn’t intrinsically that much easier to learn than Linux, but this is planet Microsoft. Everyone is surrounded by other windows users, and the knowledge is in the very air around you. With Linux, it takes a lot longer to get the knowledge that you need. It was maybe a year before I met another Linux user face to face. Don’t trust anyone who tells you that it’s easy. But for me it was incredibly rewarding if you address it on it’s own terms. Try to run Linux as if it were windows, and you will be wondering what the advantages are because you will have avoided them. The biggest advantage is that Linux gives you a choice of two tools where windows gives you one. If you only want to learn how to use one, who’s fault is that?

It’s easier than learning how to type, or how drive, or how to cook. In fact, after avoiding the command line for two years, I picked up enough to make a start in only an afternoon.

John

@ Arlo, Last I read, the new gnome is ready now but for whatever reasons Ubuntu 8.10 is going to stay with Pigin as the IM client. I expect that 9.04 will use the gnome client.

Apple does a good job, but they also control the environment. If we could only sell linux on preconfigured and well tested machines I’m sure all of it would work out of the box too. But you are right, apple shows it’s possible to move people from windows without needing the latest games.

blackbelt_jones

QUOTE”
You cannot honestly believe you are going to retrain the business world at large to embrace the command line, or to stop using their fancy new 65-page per minute color/printer/scanners in favor of 5 year old inkjets that work swell with CUPS.
END QUOTE.

Well I don’t know anything about CUPS, but if it’s so terrible, how about a windows router? Seems feasible to me, though I’m, already out of my depth.

1. I swear to God, learning the integrated command line (i.e. the command line as a supplement to the desk top) is no big deal, and it’s not even all that necessary and desirable for things like office applications. If you can live without a talking paper clip, you might not see much of a difference. My impression of Linux for the office is that it all depends on how specialized your function is. I think the Gimp is perfectly fine, but maybe some gfaphic professionals think they need photoshop. For more general, everyday things like word processing, there’s no problem… and of course, the commercial software will be available for Linux once the market share is there.

The fact is that for a large organization with a lot of machines can save millions of dollars. Retraining the business world to embrace saving millions of dollars ought to be relatively easy.

John Keels

Well, I am a CIS major and I use Windows and Linux all the time. I don’t mind the CLI when I need it and when I feel that it really is the better way for me to do something. However, for many users this is not true. It is arrogant for people in the linux world to think they know what is best for the user. The programmer’s job is tailor their software to the needs of the user. Until programmers find out the user’s requirements and then write to that Linux will remain by itself in the corner to a certain extent.

Tzer2

Toni, you said:

“everybody has learnt how to use a computer, even for windows. The question here is, are they willing to learn another way for doing things? Because they learnt to use windows. Using linux is actually easier and more comforotable than windows, only if you spend some time trying to understand how it works (in fact the same, or probably less time than the time you spend on windows)”

…which just isn’t true.

Anyone who thinks command lines are easier to learn than icons needs to get out more in the real world.

As Arlo Owens said, people who are new to computing generally find it much easier to use visual interfaces based around icons and menus rather than blank screens with command prompts. Those visual prompts are also much easier to remember than text-based commands.

This is what the MS-DOS interface used to look like when you booted up:

C:/>

…and that was it, nothing else on the screen (except maybe the MS copyright). It doesn’t really give you any kind of clue as to what to do next. It’s 100% unintuitive.

But with Windows or Macintosh there’s a whole load of pretty and informative icons that DO give you clues as to what they do. There might be an e-mail icon with an envelope, a web browser icon with a globe, a calculator icon with a picture of a calculator on it etc. If you want to alter settings, a control panel box appears with all the relevant settings and the relevant options that can be selected. It’s extremely intuitive.

With Windows and Mac you can guess half the stuff you need to do straight away, without learning anything in advance. With command lines you have to actually know everything you do in advance, there’s no way to guess anything with command lines.

If Linux is to have any hope of becoming a mainstream OS it has to provide users with a way of avoiding command lines completely. Yes command lines are handy for advanced users, but they’re totally useless for ordinary users. Ordinary users do not want to learn how to use command lines.

blackbelt_jones

QUOTE
If Linux is to have any hope of becoming a mainstream OS it has to provide users with a way of avoiding command lines completely. Yes command lines are handy for advanced users, but they’re totally useless for ordinary users. Ordinary users do not want to learn
how to use command lines.
/QUOTE

Everybody… and I mean EVERYBODY knows this. They’ve been working on it for years, and I think they may have gotten there. Someone complained about having a problem with Ubuntu and needing to go to the console, but I’ve had similar experiences with Windows. And if everything goes right, (always a big IF) you shouldn’t have to go CLI with Ubuntu. (I think. I’ve never tried to not use the CLI, so that’s just a guess.)

Linux has several terrific GUIs, lovingly developed over the years. I think it’s part of the general prejudice against the command line that people assume that linux GUIs aren’t very good, because…

But then you’ve you’re giving up one of the biggest advantages Linux has to offer. And the disadvantages of a lower market share OS that have more to do with culture and economics. (hardware support, replacing your favorite windows apps, not having other users to learn from) are still staring you in the face.

I’m absolutely certain that the modest time and energy I invested in learning the command line has been paid back at least a hundred fold in time and energy I have save, and it keeps paying me back every day, for the rest of my computing lifetime. But if you don’t think you have the time and energy, I’m not telling you to do anything different. What I am telling you is to consider staying away from Linux, until the situation changes. Linux works fine without the command line, but it’s probably not going to compensate you for the effort and frustartion of migrating. You will probably wonder what all the fuss is about.

In its own little corner of the market, Linux is thriving. Our tiny litte share has doubled in a couple of years, and that’s real success. Fifteen years ago, when Windows was nailing down the market. Linux was the hobby of a Finnish college kid. The development in the last six years has been staggering. Someday, we’ll be everything you want us to be, but right now, you should just stay put.

factotum

Sorry, some of us just look at computers as appliances and have better things to do with our time. If people would spend less time recycling the same news/blog/crap about linux over and over again for a decade, maybe some advancements would be accelerated.
It’s still no better than a skinned win98 as far as a desktop offering.
As a server it’s still one of the best. Let’s at least try to preserve that eh?

blackbelt_jones

@Tzer2

“Anyone who thinks command lines are easier to learn than icons needs to get out more in the real world.”

Not easier to LEARN. Easier to USE.

Again, it’s not about one tool being better than another tool. It’s about two tools being better than one tool. I don’t care what you do or what you use, but for the love of God, stop trying to tell me that one tool is better than two tools!

In order to use two tools, you have to learn how to use the second tool. The learning is inconvenient, and maybe even a little unpleasnt, but when you’ve done it, it’s done, and then you have two tools. For the rest of your life. I don’t care what you do, but if you confine yourself to one tool, you are almost certainly destined to spend a lot more time doing dull repetative shit, or to accomplish a great deal less. That’s because one tool is not as good as two tools. It doesn’t matter how many other people make the same choice.

You’re absolutely right that most people aren’t going to invest the time and and effort up front to use two tools instead of one. I can’t change that, but what you cannot change is the irrefutable fact that having one tool instead of two tools is going to result in you getting far less return on your efforts over a computing lifetime. All those other “ordinary people”, same story.

Maybe you don’t believe me. Maybe you believe with all your mind and heart that one tool really is better than two tools. That just doesn’t matter. It’s just simple math. 2>1.

Arlo Owens

I was married to a teacher form many years, and am an engineer, the father of two graphic artists, so we often do not think alike in any way. But, one of the things they spend a lot of time in, in the elementary area of education, is presenting data in many different ways. The most effective seem to be visual, auditory and tactile. But people who can accomplish most of their work through writing or text, are rare. Often artistic or creative folk can master tactile skills, but have a terrible time with text or numeric learning, like mathamatics.

Time and experimentation has shown, that average users are more productive with a GUI.

I have been around long enough, and been fortunate enough to have seen the birth of the personal computer revolution, from machine language programming, entering information on punch cards, and even systems where we used Fortran to program our own applications (mostly simplified heat transfer problems). Once the Mac came out, and Windows, and the cost of the systems came down, we had this argument…. GUI vs. command line. This we in the 80’s and early 90’s, and the arguments never change. What goes around comes around.

Essentially, I think that some people find the command line easier to use, but they are a small minority of the population.

Guybrush T.

No. It will never will.

jj

Wife: “I need a new PC”
Me: “No problem”, I go out and buy a new PC and deliver to wife.

2 days later.

Wife: “I don’t like this new PC, it’s too difficult”
Me: “OK, I’ll put Linux on it”

You see, it’s all down to user perception. My wife is not a computer user, she uses a computer to access the internet. She has never used Windows or the command line.

Arlo Owens

That is actually pretty darn awesome…

Alexia Death

There is an ideological rift between windows and linux. Windows assumes that the person responible for the person is the user and thus a moron. Unix world assumes that the sysadmin, the person who installs drivers and uses command line is a pro or at the very least a pro wanabe. For the simplest of users, who needs an admin and for pros, who want power Linux is better. For the tinkerer, its still windows.

blackbelt_jones

I have been around long enough, and been fortunate enough to have seen the birth of the personal computer revolution, from machine language programming, entering information on punch cards, and even systems where we used Fortran to program our own applications (mostly simplified heat transfer problems). Once the Mac came out, and Windows, and the cost of the systems came down, we had this argument…. GUI vs. command line. This we in the 80’s and early 90’s, and the arguments never change. What goes around comes around.

NONONONO! The arguement HAS changed.

In the 80s it was gui vs. command line. Now it’s GUI vs. GUI +COMMAND LINE! How many times do I have to say it? It’s one tool versus two tools.

OF COURSE people are more effective with the the gui! Nobody wants to take away anybody’s GUI. 99.9 percent of Linux end users use a gui. I’m a fluxbox user, and like most fluxbox users, my devotion to my GUI is cultlike. For as long as I’ve been using Linux, the GUI has been the focus of Linux development.

In contemporary Linux distributions, the command line is not separate from the desktop GUI. It is, for all practical purposes, an extremely powerful and versitile desktop tool.

This change in context is all-important. This makes it a completely different animal from the big black screen of the bad old days, because in order to use it, you don’t have to use it for everything. In order to learn it, you don’t have to learn it all at once! HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Since I didn’t have to learn how to do everything with the command line, I picked up enough knowledge to become functional in a single afternoon. Certain people in here have probably spent as much time and energy arguing about how hard it is learn the command line as I spent learning it. No kidding!

Arlo Owens

@Alexia Death Just because “users” don’t use a command line, it does not make them “morons”. That is an ego based argument, not a logical argument. I am glad you don’t work in our IT department! (see SNL, Nick Burns your Company Computer Guy)

@blackbelt_jones Well, again, i just look at my experience selling PC’s on the side for many years, helping friends, teaching computer classes. Home users have a different set of productivity issues, of course, than accountants or engineers, but since the vast majority of pc’s are sold to home users, the way for Linux to have it’ so called “Year of Linux” would be to reach out to these home users.

Mini laptops are one way, but observing users, collecting data, that’s the way to find out what they want in a computer. For a lot of folks, being able to bring home software from work and copy it is a biggie!

Again, the discussion is “LINUX FOR THE MASSES ARE WE THERE YET?”

The answer is a resounding “NO”!

blackbelt_jones

@Arlo Owens

No, we’re not there yet, but only the fullness of time is going to do the trick. Check out JJ’s wife. The only thing wrong with Linux is that it’s not Windows. The culture needs to catch up.

Everybody agrees that the GUI has to be the focus of development., and command line ought to be 100 per cent optional. I hope I haven’t given the impression that I think otherwise.

Arlo Owens

I am with you, Blackbelt. And, the improvements in the last few years in Linux have been astounding! I am very hopeful….

JAFO

The point that most people seem to miss is that there will never be a “Year of Linux” anymore than there was a “Year of the Imports” taking over the US car market from GM…You just look back and say “What happened to GM?” the same will said of Windows..it is gradual but none the less, it is coming………..

blackbelt_jones

@Arlo Owens

Good, and I am with you on this: people are not morons for not wanting to use the command line. The idea that using the command line saves you huge time and effort in the long run is counterintuitive. It took me two years with Linux to get around to learning it myself. And there really needs to be better educational opportunitites.

However, it is pretty ignorant for people who don’t know how to use the command line to try to tell people who do why the command line is not worth learning.

It’s worth learning, because in four years, it’s easily saved me hundreds of hours of drudgery. I spend my time on the computer doing things I like now.

People think Linux users are different, freaks, because they actually like using the computer. This makes them freaks or something, but for most people, a computer is merely a tool, a means to an end, etc etc yadda yadda blah blah blah.

But I didn’t always always use Linux… and guess what? I didn’t always enjoy computing very much. Certain things– organizing my files, for example– took hours and hours. Processing files was always one at a time. It was no fun.

No one should have to learn the command line, and no one does have to learn it. You don’t really have to learn it to use Linux any more, but you do have to learn it to understand why some people think Linux is better. If you don’t want to learn the command line. You may want to just stick with windows.

There are exceptions, and they have largely to do with support. JJ’s wife has no problem, probably because she’s got JJ to support her. It’s a little more than perception. It’s culture. If Linux was as ubiquitous as windows, nobody would have a problem. If I could have gone to my computer store six years ago and gotten my linux installed and configured, thingd would have gone a lot easier for me.

The only problem with Linux is that it isn’t Windows, and we all still live on Planet Microsoft. Linux isn’t popular on the desktop because it’s not popular on the desktop. It’s just the intertia.

It’s really got nothing to do with the command line. You can use linux without the command line, but my point was that you’re going to have go through some wrenching changes, and without the support it’s a major hassle, and without the command line, it’s not going to be much different. It’s like going all the way to paris, but never leaving your hotel room. For god’s sake, just stay home.

Like everything else, learning the command line ought to be a lot easier than it is. Linux needs an educational community, as much as it needs a development community. Until very recently, all the documentation, and all the manuals were written by programmers. That’s part of the cultural change that is needed. Also more open source software on the general market. Iuse firefox for a browser, If you’re a Windows user, you’re probably already familiar.

je.saist

Deary… Linux was ready for the masses back in 2003 with Mepis. Please join us in 2008, not 2002.

oiaohm

Linux is not ready for the masses yet. But we are close.

Lack of a ADS equal is a major killer in large networks. Being worked on. Most likely 2009

Lack of a common application format for desktop applications Linux Standard Base is close. Most likely good enough secound half of 2009.

X11 that cannot go splat and look just as dead as when the kernel goes splat. Ok Next year 2009

Linux kernel performance issues causing applications to run jerky need fixing most like 2009 again.

X11 performance bottle necks most like 2009 again.

Sound system need to be made more developer friendly on Linux. Ok don’t know when.

All the claims of Linux on the desktop have not checked against key useablity of users and developers. My best bet is it starting sometime in 2009 or 2010.

Please create a list of everything that is needed for Linux to be usable on desktop without being a pain and start checking it off when we have none left then start claiming year of the desktop.

blackbelt_jones

Technically, Linux is ready for the masses, but unfortunately that’s not good enough. There are support issues, and educational issues. It’s a lot easier to learn Windows than it is to learn Linux. There’s no technical reason for it, it’s just because everybody in the world uses Windows, and that makes the knowledge a lot easier to come by. To get Linux information I’ve actually had to read a book from time to time. If you’d rather swallow hot coals than read YOUR average computer book: Amen, brother, I’m with you! FRTM!

Linux is absolutely ready for the desktop, but the desktop computing world won’t be ready for Linux until the average user doesn’t have to read anything in order to use Linux. That means more computer stores willing to do installing and configuring and support, more users to pass along the knowledge bit by by word of mouth, the best way to learn anything. More guys like JJ to introduce Desktop Linux to their better halves.

Earl

I started working with computers around 1980, using whatever was the latest version of DOS at the time. Of course there was no Windows, no GUI, nothing except a blinking cursor. If you wanted to do anything, you typed a command and pressed ‘Enter’. if you wanted a program to do something, you wrote it. You get the picture. Since that time I’ve worked extensively with every version of Windows ever produced (excepting Vista- not even remotely interested).

A little more than 5 years ago I heard about an operating system called Linux. Installed it on a machine and, with some early help from a mentor, got up to speed. I’ve tried several different distros but, years ago, settled on Slackware. I now use Slackware 12.1 on a daily basis.

In terms of knowledge, I’m probably like a lot of people- I should know more than I do but I manage to hold my own (at least most of the time). I’m currently the IT guy for a small firm in the town where I live.

Everyone needs to use the operating system that works for them and just enjoy their computer. There’s really no need to worry about what anyone else thinks.

Which do I think is the best OS? No OS is perfect but Linux has Windows beat by miles. Windows does make some tasks somewhat easier, at the cost of being slow, buggy, bloated, insecure and just badly designed.

The typical XP (by far the best version of Windows) box requires security updates on the average of every 3 days, some of which require a reboot. It requires anti-virus software and anti-spyware software (I won’t even get on the internet with my XP box and, BTW, I administer it from my Linux box using rdesktop). It sometimes hangs (especially when you try to do two things at once), requiring a reboot. The NTFS file system still requires periodic defragging and we won’t even get into the registry. And this is just the stuff I can think of right now.

Linux seldom requires a security update, is not affected by viruses and spyware and multitasks beautifully. It doesn’t hang, there’s no BSOD, the filesystems (of which you have several to choose from) don’t require defragmenting and there’s no registry to unclog. On equivalent hardware Linux performs better and faster every time- indeed, it performs pretty well on machines that XP can’t run on at all. As for Slackware 12.1, it’s easy to install and works beautifully right out of the box. Linux has many capabilities that Windows can only dream of and, BTW, it’s free- as is most of the high-grade, stable, feature rich open source software that runs on it.

have an older machine that I use as a file a print server that once went 179 days without a reboot, despite a number of configuration changes that did not require restarting the machine. Even then, the reboot was required by a hardware glitch- the OS was fine.

For anyone that wants to use Linux I’ll pass along the first piece of advice that I was given- learn Linux from the command line. Yes, you read it right. Learn it from the command line first and you’ll be on your way to experiencing a computing world that Windows users will never know.

Robert Pogson

A lot of these passionate debates are based on
misinformation. Net Applications and other web
statistics are not global. They heavily over-
represent the USA/Europe, fairly mature and
locked-in markets. The thing that ASUS triggered
in October 2007 was the netbook. No netbook runs
Vista and XP has to be trimmed a lot to be smooth.
Thus, GNU/Linux has no peer in netbook-land. The
emerging markets for netbooks have absolutely
saturated the supply chains and show no slowing
down. VIA, Intel Atom and even the Chinese home
grown CPUs are being ramped up to meet the demand.
Considering that the world can now afford PCs and
M$ cannot supply the market, I cannot see any
reason to celebrate M$’s product any longer. The
desktop is flat, the netbook is hot and the notebook is hot.
I expect this year the true picture is that GNU/Linux
has reached 10% of desktops and the monopoly
will be essentially gone in three years.

Even NetApps does not claim more than 90% for
M$ in its niche market. Apple published unit volume
as 3% of global PC production. That leaves at least
7% for GNU/Linux. Considering that GNU/Linux is
hot in BRIC countries, 10% is very reasonable. That
makes the assumption that this is not the year of
GNU/Linux by weight of numbers very weak.

There have been so many big migrations to GNU/
Linux that it is not even news any longer. I cannot
even guess how many millions of new users there
are in 2008. Netbooks alone could count for a few
% gain in share for GNU/Linux. ASUS is no longer
alone in this market. They are all going as hard
as they can in an otherwise slow market.

There was a time when GNU/Linux was only for
geeks but that is long past. Where I live, every room
full of people has a GNU/Linux geek or two and
the ordinary users are there too. I used to be
challenged by new students to show them all the
“new” OS. Now I always meet students who have
already used it and like it. I work in North America where
M$ is established and the mindshare and numbers
have seriously eroded in 2008. I meet more people
who like GNU/Linux than like Vista. I see little
children and teenagers all flourish in GNU/Linux. This
is the year that everything changed.

oiaohm

Keep on glossing over the issue.

Normal users cannot install third party applications simply on Linux yet. That is a major road block.

Yes MS being the be all and end of of desktops has cracked.

Really Linux true year of desktop could be the end of the desktop OS and the start of the Motherboard OS.

Lot of businesses are looking at Linux as a desktop but while it cannot be simply central managed and cannot install applications from third parties simply it says on the edges.

Then there are performance issues and stablity issues with the Linux desktop. Run away processes including now could lock X11 up causing interface to frease with a general user left powerless. Windows does give you a chance of getting to a task manager. Even worse Linux kernel can stop and screen does not tell you so you can sitt there for many mins praying its just meditation.

These things don’t bother old Linux hands but new ones don’t take to it quite well. 2009-2010 is really the years. 2008 is just the cracking before the event.

Final true sign that Linux is a desktop power and in its true state of year of linux desktop is closed source companies going out of there way to release software on linux because that is a big enough market share to go after. We are only just seeing the ripples.

Please note configuration on windows also bad when it become dominate third party companies provided solutions. Most likely the same will happen with Linux.

staqnkyg

A picture is worth a thousand words. Disagree with this first

A GUI is worth a thousand words.

I use command line daily. Beyond daily - as a sysadmin it’s my tool of choice. But to suggest that CLI is an enhancement to the average end user experience is falicy.

Name the most popular alternative to Windows
Its OSx of course. The GUI is the real alternative, and in no way is the command line responsible for its increased market share. can anyone reasonabley argue this?

Aren’t the conclusions obvious?

oiaohm

Simple fact does GUI really matter that much what it looks like if you can install the third party you like with the third party configuration tools you like. The answer is no.

Now if you have a GUI you like and cannot install the third party application you need simple fact the platform is a paper weight to you then. This is the true cause of desktop failure.

Linux Distributions have failed to understand the importance of third party software. Until Linux sorts out support of third party software on the desktop the year of the Linux desktop cannot truly start. Windows and Mac understood this early on.

Of course there are usability bugs in x.org and other places that have to be fixed. Sometime 2009 will be when Linux can act like a platform instead of a mess fighting with themselfs. All prior calls about year of the Linux Desktop have all over looked the key stone to making a working OS platform support of third party applications.

blackbelt_jones

@oiaohm by third-party software, I think you mean the usual commercial proprietary stuff? It’s not fair to say that doistros don’t understand the imporotance of it. They don’t own it, what can they do? It’s a catch 22. When the market share builds, more proprietary software will be made available for :Linux, but in the meantime, 3rd party software is a problem. Tools like Virtual machines and applications like Wine are making terrific inroads, but I do find them to be a pain in the ass.

The fact is that once you get used to working with Linux, most users never really look back. There are something like 40 thousand software packages in the Ubuntu repositories, it never occurs to me that I’m not going to find what I need. And it’s all in oine place, and most of it is good solid stuff.

The biggest exception is gamers. There’s some great gaming stuff available for Linux, I used to play Second Life, and with a propietary nividia driver, it was great. I was dual booting at the time, and since SL is available for Linux and Windoes for free, it was easy for me to compare how the same program ran on both platform. Windows supported more in-world media. Linux was faster, with better resolution.

Anyway, you’re right that it’s an obstacle. It was difficult for me. I dual booted for years, and too much dual booting can be frustrating and annoying. Eventually, I just learned to prefer the Linux versions. But you’re wrong to say that Linux distros don’t understand the importance of 3rd party applications, but that is proprietary, and that puts it out of our control.

@staqnkyg:

Okay, I’ll play it your way. I’m pretty sure that whoever first said “a picture is worth a thousand words” was talking about advertising, and advertising doesn’t always speak the truth. Poets know that sometimes, a word can be worth a thousand pictures.

You know it used to really throw me when I encountered guys like you, sysadmin types who actually do know how to use the command line, but never managed to think beyond the traditional role of the cli.

Don’t talk to me about market share, that’s a separate issue. I’m sorry, but you’re just wrong. It’s not a fallacy that desktop users can benefit enormously from the command line, but it may bnot be the command line you know. I’m taling about the command line in the desktop, which is a lot easier to use. I know very little about the command line, but I use it to program my gui so that anything –ANYTHING — I want to do is just a click or a modified keystroke away. I use it to automate processes like turning avi files into CDs. Let me reprint what I wrote about that before:

QUOTE:
There’s a kind of extremely crude scripting that the hard core geeks sniff at, but which works just fine, and that’s the kind of scripting I practice.

I once found a tutorial in a linux forum about converting .avi files to .isos for DVDs. I didn’t understand any of the long intricate commands, but I copied them into a text file, and then I created another text file to activate several instances of the script in sequence. So I was able to let the machine to run all night and all the next day, and to create a dozen DVD’s at a pop, no on-the scene human required. After about 24 hours, I had 12 isos to burn all at once. Not only did this save me about six hours oif work right there, it was six hours of absolute drudgery, dull idiotic click click clicking and waiting around for each and every file. I remember what it used to be like to do this in windows.

end of QUOTE

I also really like using mplayer to play media at the command line. I have a kind of control over what I play that I could never get with any gui I know of (play a movie for me to fall asleep to , then play an ocean tape over and over 10 times , then play a David Bowie tune really loud to wake me up at 8 in the morning. It’s the shift from playing that movie once to playing the ocean sounds file eight times that would sytmie the GUIs I know. You’d have to put down the sounds file in the playlist 10 times. Also, the command line player is just a lot more reliable that the gui player. Stuff works good when it’s low to the ground.

Most of the time, when I use the command line, I’m actually using my GUI. I wrote my own menu for my gui, based on several simple commands. I put exactly what I want in my menu, exactly where I want, and then I activate the command with a click. The most intuitive GUI you’ll ever use is the one you program yourself.

And it’s not rocket science. Most of the commands look like this:

firefox http://www.gmail.com

Does anything think this hard to figure out? I’d behappy to explain it to you

Now, staqnkyg, if you use the command line as a sysadministrator, you’re probably using the console without X, (or the equivalent with another OS) and that’s just a world away from what I’m talking about here. That’s pretty hard. I can do the console in a very limited way, for somethings, but using the CLI from the comfort of the desktop GUI is not hard at all. It’s really really easy. The problem is that there’s really no place for people to learn this. All the books are written for progammers and sysadministers.

Jeez, I gotta go to bed. I’m gonna post this without proofreading so I’m sure there’s some glaring mistake in it. It may be a mess. But I am barely keeping my eyes open, AND i’M GONNA POST THIS BEFORE i LOSE ALL MY WORK. Oh and now Im hitting the Caps Lock Key…

Goodnight.

blackbelt_jones

@staqnkyg

Let me use your own words to make a point:

Quote
A picture is worth a thousand words. Disagree with this first

A GUI is worth a thousand words.
/Quote

Once again, this is incredible persistence of the outdated 1980’s GUI vs. Command Line mentality. Let me explain to you why your logic is misplaced.

I know something that is worth more than a picture.
I know something that is worth more than a thousand words.
What is that?
A picture and a thousand words.

My command line is called Konsole. It’s spelled like that because it is part of the K Desktop Envornment, more commonly known as KDE. When I launch Konsole , the Desktop doesn’t disappear. I’m going to say it one more time: It’s not about one tool being better than another tool. It’s about two tools being better than one tool.

Darrell Lawrence

Jamie’s post really says it all. The masses are computer illiterate. Until that changes it’s hard to imagine any year becoming the year of the Linux desktop. Just as another example, I asked one of my sisters who is running WIndows XP if she was was using antivirus software. Her reply was, “I don’t know.”

If we took a poll asking people what version of Microsoft Windows they were using I think we would be amazed at the percentage of people that could not tell us. There has to be mandatory computer education at the secondary school level such that people are equipped with the knowledge to make to make informed choices.

blackbelt_jones

The masses are indeed comuter illiterate, and Linux isn’t doing anything to help them get educated, so it’s really vain and hypocritical for Linux Users to bitch about how they’re a bunch of morons. I think we’re the morons. People generally don’t succeed at Linux without the command line. You don’t have to use the command line, but without it, Linux is basically Windows with inferior tech and hardware support. I really think is the truth, and we don’t tell people this. We hide our light under bushel, because we want guys like Tzer2 to like us. They don’t like us anyway, and why should they? If we’re not going to tell them the truth, we’re just wasting their time. No wonder these people are starting anti-websites, and calling us “lusers”.

And we don’t help them learn. People have all kinds of crazy ideas about the command line, based on the old command line that didn’t live inside a GUI, and that sysadministers still use. It’s a completely different experience and a lot less demanding, from what I use, but it does spring from the same forty years of Unix development. For forty years, they’ve been thinking abut ways to make BASH powerful, and it is one powerful motherfucker… but I never would have been able to learn without the support a GUI. Nobody but the most hardcore mutant Linux geeks would ever dream of not using a GUI as an end user. The GUI has been the focus of Linux development for as long as I’ve been around, and probably longer.

I have ADHD, and I cannot read a computer book. I mean, I literally cannot do it. And i think that was my good fortune, because I didn’t try to read about the command line before finally attempting it. I just looked up a few basic commands, the stuff to do with pushing files around: cp, rm, mv, mkdir… Luckily, I knew about CD from downloading mp3s and porn in IRC chat rooms, That was a lucky break, but after two of delaying, by just sitting down and doing it, it took less than an afternoon. I was on my way. But until very recently, most documentation on BASH was not aimed at the Desktop user, who does not need a book, he needs a pamphlet.

Or maybe some nice flash tutorials. I would love to see an initiative where people start making instuctional videos, and putting them on YouTube. Ever Video could be based on one command. The way I picture it is people being encouraged to be creative. The model could be sesame street.

Also, we need to refine our language. There are times when the generic “command line” referring to the big black console and the desktop window is appropriate, but we really need a term just for the desktop command line. It needs its own identity.

And we need some education-refernce software for the desktop. It would be helpful, and it would drive home the point that the command line is part of the desktop. I would love to see a desktop widget that makes shell command information handy, accesible, and pleasant to use.

oiaohm

blackbelt_jones I don’t mean just the usual commerial stuff.

Wine and other open source projects do a lot of work to provide binaries for as many distrobutions as they can.

I mean true third party anything a distribution does not provide able to down load a single installer no matter the distrobution. This might be that you hate Kde in kubuntu and install normal kde.org to make your interface the way you like. There is no reason really to have to choose a distrobution for there gnome or kde or any wm if you can simply install third party.

Simple fact open source cannot do it at the moment for desktop applications well due to api and installer issues. Let alone closed source companies.

You have used distribution logic you have no understanding how much duplication goes into making those repos. There are always applications not include in a distrobutions repo simple fact they cannot package everything open source. Also distrobutions alter programs sometimes in a way a person does not like currently if you do only solution for most people is change distrobutions. This is one of the biggest walls to Linux getting anywhere. People should not need to change distrobutions to change anything. They should be just able to change it.

Commericals are quite large in the server side where a cross distrobution api as be operational for the last 6 years. Yet numbers of desktop applications provided by closed source is extreamally low in compare. It is quite insane really lot of games people ask for on Linux provide a Linux binary server but don’t provide the client. They are not on Linux because of a API/ABI issue not that they don’t want to be there.

Closed source want to do what they do for windows release 1 installer that does all the most commonly used distributions of windows or linux at once. Market share is not the major issue. Its the fragmented Market is the issue.

Fred

Well for me Linux is mainstream enough to be install for new computer user.

I sell computer with Linux or windows depending on the costumer needs.

If my costumer is a computer noobs I will suggest a Linux base operating system. Because this type of user are overwhelm by the lack of security that windows OS are plague with. Of course the choice of distribution is very important if you want to keep your costumer happy.

I do NOT install Ubuntu on my client machine. Because when a problem happen you have to rely to much on the command line. Which mean that my costumer would have to bring back there computer back to me to fix it.

I install Mandriva Linux because of there control center who integrate everything! and if my costumer mess up there X server they can boot in safe mode and just type drakconf to fix there computer. That can be done easilly over the phone and it take less than 5 min.

So in my opinion Linux is mainstream but like windows ordinary user will alway need help from a qualify tech from time to time.

blackbelt_jones

@Fred,

For most people, L:inux would be mainstream if they could get the support. jj’s wife gets support from jj. Your customers, clearly, get support from you. Support is the missing peice that cause so much aggravation.

When I talk about Linux not being worth it without the CLI, I’m assuming the Linux world that “grew up” in, where there was no support. But no doubt about it, support changes everything. It does my heart good to see people not having to go through what I wnt through. God bless you for that.

Alexia Death

@Arlo Owens
I was illustrating the attude of systems twoards its admins. The users are supposed tu be unknowlegable about the workings of the system. They are users, all they need to know is how to use a system. Sysadmins are not supposed to have that luxury, but in a windows world where the same role is filled by the same person, regardless of skill level.
In unix world that has never been the case. In unix world, by design, installing drivers and all those things you cant do in GUI, are the reponsibilty of a PRO, a sysadmin. The user should have no reason other than the will to use the console.

Co